On the first day of the Coalition Government’s parliamentary term in December of 2023 Te Pāti Māori called for a National Māori Action Day, which co-leader Rawiri Waititi described as “a day of activation”.
Am I on my own when it offends me that the current Solicitor General, named in the Royal Commission's report on Abuse in State Care, as treating victims of the state harshly, is sitting in judgement on a political party when she should be up the road? She's well past her use-by date. The woman is a disgrace, especially after her hollow apology last week in Parliament.
Talking to supporters of the activist Maori "cause", after all the obfuscation enabled by their typical overuse of profoundly vague Maori-ish terminology and emotive platitudes is interpreted, divided, self-rule is exactly what activist Maori and their supporters are after.
Although self-rule doesn't go as far as self sustainability. Consequently to fill that massive void, they also want co-governance, to put them in a position to mine or extract a healthy income from Pakeha, whilst making full use of Pakeha resources, infrastructure and know how.
All of this ironically, being of course entirely anathematic to the Treaty that they claim so vehemently to support, including what can only be seen as diametrically opposite to pursuing a "partnership of good faith", deliberately misinterpreting that judicial comment as signifying a governing partnership, rather than one only for the purpose of fulfilling the Treaty. Co-governance being a demand that could not unreasonably be described as the ultimate in bad faith.
Of course this could all be set aside as the ravings of a bunch of nutters, if it wasn't for, not only their representation in Parliament (with recent parliamentary antics certainly representing what to expect if this "new nation" is let loose) but also quite clearly by lawyers and judges in the justice system, not forgetting widespread general support by the wokerati left (CRT, DEI, post modernist social justice warriors) who have embedded themselves in some of our most prominent leadership positions. Also not forgetting the significant tail wind provided by a cowardly, woke leaning PM when it comes to societal matters.
I don't believe we will see an actual new nation, but the stage is certainly being set for achieving significant progress towards He Puapua, possibly of a sort of which the Ardern regime could only dream. It could go the other way of course if your average Kiwi decides they've had enough and there was massive support and pressure on the Government in favour of the TPB, but I won't be holding my breath.
I'd like your definition of "honorable" if it includes a raving libertarian striving to promote only his version of a decent society then possibly I could understand your comment.
Well, he has certainly done the hard yards to get where he can promote his version of a decent society, which isn't "his version" at all. It's the version of the 300k or so who voted for
If they hadn't, he wouldn't be able to "promote only his version of a decent society" (actually, he's promoting democracy but you probably don't like that either. Too libertarian...) Get it?
As somebody who has actively supported democratic participation all my life, I find the doctrine of neo-liberalism detestable and a rot in our society. I have actively participated in resisting its evil spread.
I suppose it's possible that stating unchallengable concepts can be called a "rave." They did it to Sidey, we have daylight saving.. They did it to Laws, we have assisted dying. Give it time!
There's a huge difference between a person who is promoting something for the good of society, as you have identified in your two examples. My criticism is when what is being promoted is to only benefit individuals, often to greater societies detriment.
I rate Peters as an indicator of a small "c" conservative most of the time. He does know how to stir the pot, but on the whole, he is a consistent conservative politician, and I have worked with many of them and generally enjoyed their opinions. I consider Luxon a typical neo-lib who isn't a good politician. He should have told Seymour to get stuffed with a number of things he agreed to during the negotiations. I'd hazard a guess that Peters will be nervous with Seymour as deputy PM soon. Peters has been an excellent team player as deputy. I trust that answers your question.
Yeah Seymour is honourably getting rid of obstacles for the wanna-be oligarch ACT donors so they can expand the raping and pillaging of our natural resources and exploitation of workers.
What don't you like about him Cheryl? Is it those cold eyes and sneering sideways lips? Close your eyes next time he's on and just listen to what he says.
Watch this space, Michael. The MP will get more than 3% next election, at Labour’s expense. Take something away and the loser, however unjustified, will complain. This is clever politics. Awful citizenship but there’s a section of Maori society which wants a Maori Parliament and they’ll keep going until they get it or they’re stopped in their tracks. National is going to have to stop wringing its hands.
Seymour's Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi bill is provocative, and the sooner it dies the better for all of us. Its provocation lies in its Principle 2, on property rights.
However, its first and third principles need vigorous affirmation.
Principle 1: The Government of New Zealand has full power to govern, and Parliament has full power to make laws.
This is fact; it requires no new law. What it does require is for the great majority of New Zealanders to support the state as it exists now, and to resist attempts to undermine it with notions of 'co-government', while at the same time acknowledging the right of those who identify as Māori to self-determination in contexts that do not infringe the rights of others.
Principle 3 declares that 'Everyone is equal before the law and is entitled to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination'; and that 'Everyone is entitled to the equal enjoyment of the same fundamental human rights without discrimination.'
This is what Palestinians are dying for. It is so fundamental to society that it ought to be the principal clause in the Bill of Rights Act and the Human Rights Act. Seymour's Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi is not the place for it.
Ultimately economic inequality and greed is the only problem in NZ. I'm Maori and I'm not the only one who knows this. To address it means making a personal choice to address it alone - and/or collectively. Deal with that, putting ordinary people with common sense at the centre (not easy) is an option for resilient leaders who aren't greedy, aren't self interested but are willing to give the wrong people are good hiding, no matter the personal cost.
The quickest way to emasculate TPM is to stop funding that crook John Tamihere. The poor dupes in the 'Hikoi of the Hopeless' have achieved nothing more than pissing off ordinary working Kiwis and confirming the outrageous bias on the MSM. Talk about an own goal! All of the of the pre-planned war dances in Parliament do is make us the laughing stock of other more mature nations. Hakas have been so overdone they are ten a penny and can be seen at any boozy do where the participants can still stand. They don't mean anything much to ordinary Kiwis, outside of the All Blacks games. If TPM want a 'Maori day of activation' then they will need to energise a few more dupes and primary school children press ganged into vans to make up the numbers. I believe that the numbers attending moved between 35,000 and 55,000 depending on who you believe, or 0.02 of our population. Hardly enough for a good crowd at the Cake Tin. To be honest, when have we not had Hikois or protests, all clamouring for more taxpayer largesse for these deserving people? If you think of all the billions paid out 'Honouring the Treaty' and the billions more for special Maori programs aimed at reducing this or that terrible statistic, what have we got to show for it?
All this verbiage about woke and application of the Treaty in the modern context totally misses the irony of D Seymour and CO’s insistence on the sanctity of contract law and property rights while seeking to rewrite the contract entered into - as they saw it- by the signatories to the Treaty of Waitangi. Equally the condemnation of the Maori Party’s politicisation of the issue as they seek to gather up voters can equally be levelled at ACT. A six month select committee process is a windfall for ACT as they seek to carve away parts of the electorate captured by the anti co-governance crusade from National. And here in aside, I note how poorly Labour dealt with opposition to this concept in its 3 Waters campaign by failing to define or proscribe the limits of co- governance. Hands down D Seymour is winning the battle of social media driven angst with his reductionist arguments for a Bill written on a postage stamp being a nirvana guaranteeing equality for all.
A treaty is not a contract and the treaty has never been treated as a literal contract. Otherwise, the non signatories should pay back their treaty settlements.
Yes in NZ law not a contract and only given legal weight in specific contexts as interpreted by the courts but would argue, having read some of the original records of missionaries and Wiremu Tamihana etc that Maori Chiefs would have for all intents and purposes seen the agreement as a contract between the British Government and Maori. The Treaty Principles Bill is a clumsy and politically motivated instrument to deal with this complex constitutional issue.
Spot-on about what Seymour is up to and how Labour enabled it. Cue Groundswell (with TPU's Jordan Williams charging round the country), Hobson's Pledge, Bassett Brahs & Hide, etc.
500,000 New Zealanders having their rally come hikoi supporting the bill, now that would be something. Our country has turned into a butch of weak socialist woke's sad to say, why did Trump win with such a huge margin, why are the right wing groups in western Europe rolling ahead, simple answer they are all sick and tied of this socialist rubbish been rammed down our throats, we as a country are to dumb to even understand that our democracy is been undermined right in front of our eyes, who do you think paid for the hikoi and all the sniveling hangers on, me, you, us, our money, do you really think that is on, tax payers money been used to undermine our democracy, would we get funding if we were to have a counter rally come hikoi, what do you think?
Yes Bryce I have concerns that the Electoral Commission et al will drag the chain as long as they can so that they ultimately conclude its not in the public interest or it becomes obfuscated and largely dropped. A bit like what happened with earlier allegations and issues with Tamihere etc. Basically, its a bit like what has happened with the Bish and his Covid meetings and how they have delayed it so long that its no longer relevant. This seems to be another one of the standard political tactics deployed under the last few governments.
The most up-to-date figures I could find from StatsNZ (2024) show that the provisional estimate of the Maori population is just under 1 million. Police estimate the number on the Hikoi at Wellington as 47,000. The organisers claim to speak for all Maori and that the movement is one of unification. I live in a mid-Waikato town and I asked a close Maori friend if she was planning on joining the Hikoi. She and a number of her whanau and their friends don't want a bar of it because, and I quote, "They do NOT represent all Maori".
In this day of social media extravaganzas, noisy prima donnas and media soundbites it's all too easy to forget the little people. My friend is a solo mother struggling to give her three children a good life, at which she is absolutely excelling. She's adamant that little of the money that gets granted to her iwi has trickled down to those who are struggling like her, and is very critical on how some of it has been used.
The re-invention of TPM as a movement towards self-determination signals many things, but NOT, I think, the vision of coming together of the late King Tuheitia in the way he meant.
Sorry I find your generalized comments below quite annoying. I happen to be a CA so I do understand the strengths, and the weaknesses, of capitalism, and your genuflecting to the sacred adherence to "market forces" I find quite shallow.
...a Caesarian Section maybe. They spend 40 years gaming the system thru the ToW and now tell us that they never ceded sovereignty. They were cunning enough not to announce that 40 years ago. or is this just another fad that has only just occurred to them? Funny old world, aint it?
I don't know what it says about the attention I've been paying, or the coverage I've been reading and watching, that I didn't know before this post that the lead organiser of the hīkoi is a Te Pāti Māori staffer 🫣
Am I on my own when it offends me that the current Solicitor General, named in the Royal Commission's report on Abuse in State Care, as treating victims of the state harshly, is sitting in judgement on a political party when she should be up the road? She's well past her use-by date. The woman is a disgrace, especially after her hollow apology last week in Parliament.
The question makes absolute sense in context.
Talking to supporters of the activist Maori "cause", after all the obfuscation enabled by their typical overuse of profoundly vague Maori-ish terminology and emotive platitudes is interpreted, divided, self-rule is exactly what activist Maori and their supporters are after.
Although self-rule doesn't go as far as self sustainability. Consequently to fill that massive void, they also want co-governance, to put them in a position to mine or extract a healthy income from Pakeha, whilst making full use of Pakeha resources, infrastructure and know how.
All of this ironically, being of course entirely anathematic to the Treaty that they claim so vehemently to support, including what can only be seen as diametrically opposite to pursuing a "partnership of good faith", deliberately misinterpreting that judicial comment as signifying a governing partnership, rather than one only for the purpose of fulfilling the Treaty. Co-governance being a demand that could not unreasonably be described as the ultimate in bad faith.
Of course this could all be set aside as the ravings of a bunch of nutters, if it wasn't for, not only their representation in Parliament (with recent parliamentary antics certainly representing what to expect if this "new nation" is let loose) but also quite clearly by lawyers and judges in the justice system, not forgetting widespread general support by the wokerati left (CRT, DEI, post modernist social justice warriors) who have embedded themselves in some of our most prominent leadership positions. Also not forgetting the significant tail wind provided by a cowardly, woke leaning PM when it comes to societal matters.
I don't believe we will see an actual new nation, but the stage is certainly being set for achieving significant progress towards He Puapua, possibly of a sort of which the Ardern regime could only dream. It could go the other way of course if your average Kiwi decides they've had enough and there was massive support and pressure on the Government in favour of the TPB, but I won't be holding my breath.
This is a erudite and intelligent contribution. well done, Ron.
Thank you.
"Anathematic." Love it.
And all of this could most probably been avoided if the PM had been strong enough to stand up to the despicable Seymour.
Despicable? Think you might be an over reactor. Equality for all is his aim. You may not want that but he is an honourable man
I'd like your definition of "honorable" if it includes a raving libertarian striving to promote only his version of a decent society then possibly I could understand your comment.
Well, he has certainly done the hard yards to get where he can promote his version of a decent society, which isn't "his version" at all. It's the version of the 300k or so who voted for
If they hadn't, he wouldn't be able to "promote only his version of a decent society" (actually, he's promoting democracy but you probably don't like that either. Too libertarian...) Get it?
As somebody who has actively supported democratic participation all my life, I find the doctrine of neo-liberalism detestable and a rot in our society. I have actively participated in resisting its evil spread.
I love a high quality neo-liberal. They do wonders for my share portfolio.
I guess you do
Good for you. Keep up the great struggle. Can you define a woman?
You should invest in the share market Garry, it's about to pop!
I have NEVER seen or heard him rave! Let me know when you did.
Every time he opens his mouth
I suppose it's possible that stating unchallengable concepts can be called a "rave." They did it to Sidey, we have daylight saving.. They did it to Laws, we have assisted dying. Give it time!
There's a huge difference between a person who is promoting something for the good of society, as you have identified in your two examples. My criticism is when what is being promoted is to only benefit individuals, often to greater societies detriment.
Opinion! How would you rate Peters and Luxon?
I rate Peters. Always have. Can't remember ever voting for him though.
I rate Peters as an indicator of a small "c" conservative most of the time. He does know how to stir the pot, but on the whole, he is a consistent conservative politician, and I have worked with many of them and generally enjoyed their opinions. I consider Luxon a typical neo-lib who isn't a good politician. He should have told Seymour to get stuffed with a number of things he agreed to during the negotiations. I'd hazard a guess that Peters will be nervous with Seymour as deputy PM soon. Peters has been an excellent team player as deputy. I trust that answers your question.
small "c" for carkoi?
Yeah Seymour is honourably getting rid of obstacles for the wanna-be oligarch ACT donors so they can expand the raping and pillaging of our natural resources and exploitation of workers.
Jesus, we're rooted!
Luxon is as weak as wet toilet paper and should resign immediately
Wet T paper. I hope that's after you've used, it, not before.
Or if Seymore the honest and courageous teller of truth was supported by the weak, woke PM.
What don't you like about him Cheryl? Is it those cold eyes and sneering sideways lips? Close your eyes next time he's on and just listen to what he says.
I do not want it "avoided." I have views on this subject and I want to express them if you don't mind.
Which you,as is everyone else,are entitled to do. Democracy.
Well don't talk about avoidance then.
Yep, whatever.
Remember "despicable?" If you want hang words like that on people, go to X.
Does the Treaty Hikoi signify the birth of a new Māori nation?
.....NO.
These people are playing political and sadly divisive social games on a back end of under 3% of the voting population.
Watch this space, Michael. The MP will get more than 3% next election, at Labour’s expense. Take something away and the loser, however unjustified, will complain. This is clever politics. Awful citizenship but there’s a section of Maori society which wants a Maori Parliament and they’ll keep going until they get it or they’re stopped in their tracks. National is going to have to stop wringing its hands.
Seymour's Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi bill is provocative, and the sooner it dies the better for all of us. Its provocation lies in its Principle 2, on property rights.
However, its first and third principles need vigorous affirmation.
Principle 1: The Government of New Zealand has full power to govern, and Parliament has full power to make laws.
This is fact; it requires no new law. What it does require is for the great majority of New Zealanders to support the state as it exists now, and to resist attempts to undermine it with notions of 'co-government', while at the same time acknowledging the right of those who identify as Māori to self-determination in contexts that do not infringe the rights of others.
Principle 3 declares that 'Everyone is equal before the law and is entitled to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination'; and that 'Everyone is entitled to the equal enjoyment of the same fundamental human rights without discrimination.'
This is what Palestinians are dying for. It is so fundamental to society that it ought to be the principal clause in the Bill of Rights Act and the Human Rights Act. Seymour's Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi is not the place for it.
Worth noting more have signed a stop the treaty principles bill petition than voted for ACT in the 2023 election
Ultimately economic inequality and greed is the only problem in NZ. I'm Maori and I'm not the only one who knows this. To address it means making a personal choice to address it alone - and/or collectively. Deal with that, putting ordinary people with common sense at the centre (not easy) is an option for resilient leaders who aren't greedy, aren't self interested but are willing to give the wrong people are good hiding, no matter the personal cost.
The quickest way to emasculate TPM is to stop funding that crook John Tamihere. The poor dupes in the 'Hikoi of the Hopeless' have achieved nothing more than pissing off ordinary working Kiwis and confirming the outrageous bias on the MSM. Talk about an own goal! All of the of the pre-planned war dances in Parliament do is make us the laughing stock of other more mature nations. Hakas have been so overdone they are ten a penny and can be seen at any boozy do where the participants can still stand. They don't mean anything much to ordinary Kiwis, outside of the All Blacks games. If TPM want a 'Maori day of activation' then they will need to energise a few more dupes and primary school children press ganged into vans to make up the numbers. I believe that the numbers attending moved between 35,000 and 55,000 depending on who you believe, or 0.02 of our population. Hardly enough for a good crowd at the Cake Tin. To be honest, when have we not had Hikois or protests, all clamouring for more taxpayer largesse for these deserving people? If you think of all the billions paid out 'Honouring the Treaty' and the billions more for special Maori programs aimed at reducing this or that terrible statistic, what have we got to show for it?
Pffft - Maori Activation Day - really?
All this verbiage about woke and application of the Treaty in the modern context totally misses the irony of D Seymour and CO’s insistence on the sanctity of contract law and property rights while seeking to rewrite the contract entered into - as they saw it- by the signatories to the Treaty of Waitangi. Equally the condemnation of the Maori Party’s politicisation of the issue as they seek to gather up voters can equally be levelled at ACT. A six month select committee process is a windfall for ACT as they seek to carve away parts of the electorate captured by the anti co-governance crusade from National. And here in aside, I note how poorly Labour dealt with opposition to this concept in its 3 Waters campaign by failing to define or proscribe the limits of co- governance. Hands down D Seymour is winning the battle of social media driven angst with his reductionist arguments for a Bill written on a postage stamp being a nirvana guaranteeing equality for all.
A treaty is not a contract and the treaty has never been treated as a literal contract. Otherwise, the non signatories should pay back their treaty settlements.
Yes in NZ law not a contract and only given legal weight in specific contexts as interpreted by the courts but would argue, having read some of the original records of missionaries and Wiremu Tamihana etc that Maori Chiefs would have for all intents and purposes seen the agreement as a contract between the British Government and Maori. The Treaty Principles Bill is a clumsy and politically motivated instrument to deal with this complex constitutional issue.
Spot-on about what Seymour is up to and how Labour enabled it. Cue Groundswell (with TPU's Jordan Williams charging round the country), Hobson's Pledge, Bassett Brahs & Hide, etc.
Does the Treaty Hikoi signify the birth of a new Māori nation? Answer... Nope!
500,000 New Zealanders having their rally come hikoi supporting the bill, now that would be something. Our country has turned into a butch of weak socialist woke's sad to say, why did Trump win with such a huge margin, why are the right wing groups in western Europe rolling ahead, simple answer they are all sick and tied of this socialist rubbish been rammed down our throats, we as a country are to dumb to even understand that our democracy is been undermined right in front of our eyes, who do you think paid for the hikoi and all the sniveling hangers on, me, you, us, our money, do you really think that is on, tax payers money been used to undermine our democracy, would we get funding if we were to have a counter rally come hikoi, what do you think?
Yes Bryce I have concerns that the Electoral Commission et al will drag the chain as long as they can so that they ultimately conclude its not in the public interest or it becomes obfuscated and largely dropped. A bit like what happened with earlier allegations and issues with Tamihere etc. Basically, its a bit like what has happened with the Bish and his Covid meetings and how they have delayed it so long that its no longer relevant. This seems to be another one of the standard political tactics deployed under the last few governments.
The most up-to-date figures I could find from StatsNZ (2024) show that the provisional estimate of the Maori population is just under 1 million. Police estimate the number on the Hikoi at Wellington as 47,000. The organisers claim to speak for all Maori and that the movement is one of unification. I live in a mid-Waikato town and I asked a close Maori friend if she was planning on joining the Hikoi. She and a number of her whanau and their friends don't want a bar of it because, and I quote, "They do NOT represent all Maori".
In this day of social media extravaganzas, noisy prima donnas and media soundbites it's all too easy to forget the little people. My friend is a solo mother struggling to give her three children a good life, at which she is absolutely excelling. She's adamant that little of the money that gets granted to her iwi has trickled down to those who are struggling like her, and is very critical on how some of it has been used.
The re-invention of TPM as a movement towards self-determination signals many things, but NOT, I think, the vision of coming together of the late King Tuheitia in the way he meant.
Sorry I find your generalized comments below quite annoying. I happen to be a CA so I do understand the strengths, and the weaknesses, of capitalism, and your genuflecting to the sacred adherence to "market forces" I find quite shallow.
...a Caesarian Section maybe. They spend 40 years gaming the system thru the ToW and now tell us that they never ceded sovereignty. They were cunning enough not to announce that 40 years ago. or is this just another fad that has only just occurred to them? Funny old world, aint it?
I don't know what it says about the attention I've been paying, or the coverage I've been reading and watching, that I didn't know before this post that the lead organiser of the hīkoi is a Te Pāti Māori staffer 🫣