1. In escalation terms, of recent years (and covid protest stomping notwithstanding), gangs have escalated farther and faster than the cops. Escalation dominance is a substantial military theory which predicts response along lines you've outlined
2. Absent the law, we have no society. At all, full stop. Maori inter-tribal kill-or-be-killed prevails. Not because it's Maori, but because it's tribal, and early European civilisation was no different. The most extreme left wing conceit (some libertarians also) is that "universalist" values would prevail without being underpinned by rule of law by force if necessary. History shows how absurd that notion is.
If you do not want to see police with weapons it can be the army who will disband the gangs, confiscate their assets and set their families free. These people are criminals, not the members of clubs. The sooner the society gets rid of them the better.
3 words: attacking the symptom (or "bumper sticker slogan"). Similar patch bans in Oz merely pushed the problem across state borders, rather than fixing it. And how's militarised policing working out in the States? And would Brian Tamaki's Man Up count as patches?
"Only with a hefty squad of armed police backing up the local constable/s will gang patches ever be removed from gang members’ shoulders and hung-up safely in the gang’s headquarters."
Or a scorched-earth solution as used by Assad in Syria or Milosevic in the former Yugoslavia. And how's militarised policing working out in the States?
On a side note, when Free Speech Union member & former ACT MP Stephen Franks was on the RNZ Panel several days ago (https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018927673), he denied the role of poverty driving gang membership. Later in the panel (13:47 minutes in), it was pointed out the FSU questioned the patch ban, then someone asked in an e-mail, "what would happen if I walk round in a Nazi outfit?. Tellingly, Franks largely evaded the question.
Things would have to get seriously out of control for a general arming of the police to be required. Where there is a reasonable expectation that offenders are armed and dangerous (most gang members ?) "the frontline enforcers of the law" already have access to firearms, the AOS if necessary and new generation taser guns for less serious events.
Perhaps the targeting of gang regalia will cause more problems than it solves but I agree with recent comments from Stuart Nash re the greater targeting of criminal assets - a move that he proposed and had rejected by the previous government.
Even if there is no evidence of criminality the IRD can seize assets, and prosecute for tax evasion - that's how they brought down Al Capone in the face of a marked "reluctance" from victims and allies to provide evidence for criminal conviction. That reluctance is a real problem for the police and prosecution here as well - such is the gang's power of intimidation.
I have a leaky pipe in my house. I've left the pipes quite a while without doing any maintenance on them so they're in pretty shape but I've been coping it with ok. One day a pipe bursts. It's bad enough that I need to take immediate action so I grab the duct tape and patch it up. Unfortunately it's a bad break and I have to keep duct-taping it constantly or the house will be flooded.
My neighbour pops round, sees the problem, agrees that duct tape is a good temporary fix and asks why I don't just have the pipe replaced. I reply that that would cost too much money, take too long, might not even fix the problem if that results in a new leak somewhere else and duct tape will work as long as I keep applying it regularly. There's only a small amount of leakage now, some damp patches in the walls and a bit of mould starting to grow but I can live with that.
None of it is ok for women and children (the majority) so it simply has to be stopped. Any way required at this point as it’s just more rampant misogyny and sexism being enabled in most forums. This male and macho violence and oppression is simply unacceptable and seeps into our institutions as well to the extreme we now see. It’s always been terrible and largely illegal but ignored. Well not anymore. As far as I’m concerned there is no way women and girls would get away with nearly as much as they do. Simple. It’s about time men and institutions we all pay for started doing their jobs and not been sneaky manipulative enabling cowards. Their handmaids need re-educating about their legal and human rights as well. At this point they’re only talking about dealing with the VERY worst tip of the iceberg of male violence and abuse so hysterical overreaction is puerile.
What are they going to call the patrols required in all these heavily Māori districts? The New Zealand Armed Constabulary? Someone should tell Mr Mitchell it's been tried, already.
All quite plausible. Two things to add though:
1. In escalation terms, of recent years (and covid protest stomping notwithstanding), gangs have escalated farther and faster than the cops. Escalation dominance is a substantial military theory which predicts response along lines you've outlined
2. Absent the law, we have no society. At all, full stop. Maori inter-tribal kill-or-be-killed prevails. Not because it's Maori, but because it's tribal, and early European civilisation was no different. The most extreme left wing conceit (some libertarians also) is that "universalist" values would prevail without being underpinned by rule of law by force if necessary. History shows how absurd that notion is.
If you do not want to see police with weapons it can be the army who will disband the gangs, confiscate their assets and set their families free. These people are criminals, not the members of clubs. The sooner the society gets rid of them the better.
3 words: attacking the symptom (or "bumper sticker slogan"). Similar patch bans in Oz merely pushed the problem across state borders, rather than fixing it. And how's militarised policing working out in the States? And would Brian Tamaki's Man Up count as patches?
"Only with a hefty squad of armed police backing up the local constable/s will gang patches ever be removed from gang members’ shoulders and hung-up safely in the gang’s headquarters."
Or a scorched-earth solution as used by Assad in Syria or Milosevic in the former Yugoslavia. And how's militarised policing working out in the States?
On a side note, when Free Speech Union member & former ACT MP Stephen Franks was on the RNZ Panel several days ago (https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018927673), he denied the role of poverty driving gang membership. Later in the panel (13:47 minutes in), it was pointed out the FSU questioned the patch ban, then someone asked in an e-mail, "what would happen if I walk round in a Nazi outfit?. Tellingly, Franks largely evaded the question.
Thank you Chris.
Things would have to get seriously out of control for a general arming of the police to be required. Where there is a reasonable expectation that offenders are armed and dangerous (most gang members ?) "the frontline enforcers of the law" already have access to firearms, the AOS if necessary and new generation taser guns for less serious events.
Perhaps the targeting of gang regalia will cause more problems than it solves but I agree with recent comments from Stuart Nash re the greater targeting of criminal assets - a move that he proposed and had rejected by the previous government.
Even if there is no evidence of criminality the IRD can seize assets, and prosecute for tax evasion - that's how they brought down Al Capone in the face of a marked "reluctance" from victims and allies to provide evidence for criminal conviction. That reluctance is a real problem for the police and prosecution here as well - such is the gang's power of intimidation.
I have a leaky pipe in my house. I've left the pipes quite a while without doing any maintenance on them so they're in pretty shape but I've been coping it with ok. One day a pipe bursts. It's bad enough that I need to take immediate action so I grab the duct tape and patch it up. Unfortunately it's a bad break and I have to keep duct-taping it constantly or the house will be flooded.
My neighbour pops round, sees the problem, agrees that duct tape is a good temporary fix and asks why I don't just have the pipe replaced. I reply that that would cost too much money, take too long, might not even fix the problem if that results in a new leak somewhere else and duct tape will work as long as I keep applying it regularly. There's only a small amount of leakage now, some damp patches in the walls and a bit of mould starting to grow but I can live with that.
I can always go and buy more duct tape.
After some time the money you pay for duct tape will equal the money for a new tape. Good story.
None of it is ok for women and children (the majority) so it simply has to be stopped. Any way required at this point as it’s just more rampant misogyny and sexism being enabled in most forums. This male and macho violence and oppression is simply unacceptable and seeps into our institutions as well to the extreme we now see. It’s always been terrible and largely illegal but ignored. Well not anymore. As far as I’m concerned there is no way women and girls would get away with nearly as much as they do. Simple. It’s about time men and institutions we all pay for started doing their jobs and not been sneaky manipulative enabling cowards. Their handmaids need re-educating about their legal and human rights as well. At this point they’re only talking about dealing with the VERY worst tip of the iceberg of male violence and abuse so hysterical overreaction is puerile.
What are they going to call the patrols required in all these heavily Māori districts? The New Zealand Armed Constabulary? Someone should tell Mr Mitchell it's been tried, already.