It takes both sides of a conflict to make peace, Malcolm. Unfortunately, Hamas, as an organisation, is ideologically incapable of making peace with Israel - an entity which it was founded to destroy. For Hamas, peace would be a betrayal.
Like so many on the Left, you project the annihilationist motivation of the terrorist onto the State of Israel. Do you really not see that if Israel wanted to annihilate the Palestinian people, to actually commit the "genocide" of which it stands accused, then it could do so in a matter of days.
If Iran is allowed to arm Hamas with tactical nuclear weapons, however, then the world will see what genocide looks like.
My eyes are wide open. I make no defense whatsoever of Hamas's actions - they are totally unacceptable. Unlike you though, I see the actions of Israel in this situation similarly unacceptable. I believe most of the United Nations hold a similar view.
I have a great deal of respect for you but you appear to be "losing it" on this one. For one, Iran don't have nuclear weapons and even if they did they wouldn't be "giving them away" - no nation has ever done this nor would in any rational reckoning.
I similarly reject the views you characterise of "the left" as my own. I respect all human life and mourn the loss of Jews and Palestinians equally, especially the innocent. I want it to stop - I want both sides to recognise their humanity and the humanity of the other and look for a path to coexistence. If they did this the extremists/extremism would then become totally marginalised and able to be dealt with by the society they exist within. Further war just enables it. I think I've said enough now on this one. Regards
If your response to the "extreme actions" of Hamas is to reach immediately for justifications, then your moral compass, Malcolm, is in urgent need of repair. One does not encourage dialogue and reconciliation by raping and then beheading young women, or incinerating babies. All that such barbarism achieves is a hardening of one's enemy's resolve. Israel will not rest now until Hamas is destroyed - root and branch. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Chris , it’s not my moral compass - it’s empathy with another’s (as opposed to sympathy). The problem is of course “Hamas” is not equivalent to “Palestinian” even though the latter are paying a massive price. Do you think Israel’s actions will not inspire a whole new generation of radicals? Peace and reconciliation is what’s needed not more war. Shame on you
Defining the ‘’Left” by lumping the “left” with a small faction of anti-semitic extremists, I think is unfair. From what I can tell looking at least on the the main US leftist news program, Democracy Now, Hamas was indeed brutal and committed war crimes. The Israelis are surrounded by ISIS-like enemies with the intent to push them into the sea - while Hamas use human shields when attackled.
I think that many leftists (many who are Jewish in the US) understand the complexity of the problem. Israel like NZ, Canada, the US and Australia (and Ukraine) is a colonial entity. The nation was founded on land with a native population that was for the most part subsequently and violently displaced.
Indeed, the McMahon letters indicated support for a homeland upon the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, as the Balfour Declaration was also declared. It was double booked. Some sort of actual compensation should be made beyond the Oslo agreements which have been shredded by increasingly far right-wing Israeli governments. (read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_Palestine ).
Already we have a 4:1 ratio between Palestinian and Israeli deaths and the ground war has hardly begun. The death of a Palestinian child is no less gruesome than an Israeli child. A cease-fire should be engaged and compensation for both sides worked out.
I agree. Sure, nothing of what Hamas did on 7 Oct can be supported or endorsed and they did indeed understand/welcomed the implications.
I think the point is that, like any terrorist act, a subset of a marginalised population felt compelled to extreme actions to achieve a political end. It's hard not to see why this has occurred with a decades long siege, Israel's continual expansion into the occupied territories, no negotiations in good faith to resolve the dispute, and their chief supporter, the US, "recognising the reality on the ground" - euphemism for "the Palestinians have lost". Put yourself in those shoes and it's easy to see that some might calculate that an extreme action might lead to an even more extreme response (which is true) and this MIGHT lead to the world putting renewed pressure on Israel to enter into good faith bargaining...
It takes both sides of a conflict to make peace, Malcolm. Unfortunately, Hamas, as an organisation, is ideologically incapable of making peace with Israel - an entity which it was founded to destroy. For Hamas, peace would be a betrayal.
Like so many on the Left, you project the annihilationist motivation of the terrorist onto the State of Israel. Do you really not see that if Israel wanted to annihilate the Palestinian people, to actually commit the "genocide" of which it stands accused, then it could do so in a matter of days.
If Iran is allowed to arm Hamas with tactical nuclear weapons, however, then the world will see what genocide looks like.
Open your eyes.
My eyes are wide open. I make no defense whatsoever of Hamas's actions - they are totally unacceptable. Unlike you though, I see the actions of Israel in this situation similarly unacceptable. I believe most of the United Nations hold a similar view.
I have a great deal of respect for you but you appear to be "losing it" on this one. For one, Iran don't have nuclear weapons and even if they did they wouldn't be "giving them away" - no nation has ever done this nor would in any rational reckoning.
I similarly reject the views you characterise of "the left" as my own. I respect all human life and mourn the loss of Jews and Palestinians equally, especially the innocent. I want it to stop - I want both sides to recognise their humanity and the humanity of the other and look for a path to coexistence. If they did this the extremists/extremism would then become totally marginalised and able to be dealt with by the society they exist within. Further war just enables it. I think I've said enough now on this one. Regards
If your response to the "extreme actions" of Hamas is to reach immediately for justifications, then your moral compass, Malcolm, is in urgent need of repair. One does not encourage dialogue and reconciliation by raping and then beheading young women, or incinerating babies. All that such barbarism achieves is a hardening of one's enemy's resolve. Israel will not rest now until Hamas is destroyed - root and branch. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Chris , it’s not my moral compass - it’s empathy with another’s (as opposed to sympathy). The problem is of course “Hamas” is not equivalent to “Palestinian” even though the latter are paying a massive price. Do you think Israel’s actions will not inspire a whole new generation of radicals? Peace and reconciliation is what’s needed not more war. Shame on you
The only thing I have "lost", Malcom, is my faith in the ability of seemingly intelligent and well-educated people to distinguish Good from Evil.
Defining the ‘’Left” by lumping the “left” with a small faction of anti-semitic extremists, I think is unfair. From what I can tell looking at least on the the main US leftist news program, Democracy Now, Hamas was indeed brutal and committed war crimes. The Israelis are surrounded by ISIS-like enemies with the intent to push them into the sea - while Hamas use human shields when attackled.
I think that many leftists (many who are Jewish in the US) understand the complexity of the problem. Israel like NZ, Canada, the US and Australia (and Ukraine) is a colonial entity. The nation was founded on land with a native population that was for the most part subsequently and violently displaced.
Indeed, the McMahon letters indicated support for a homeland upon the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, as the Balfour Declaration was also declared. It was double booked. Some sort of actual compensation should be made beyond the Oslo agreements which have been shredded by increasingly far right-wing Israeli governments. (read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred_Years%27_War_on_Palestine ).
Already we have a 4:1 ratio between Palestinian and Israeli deaths and the ground war has hardly begun. The death of a Palestinian child is no less gruesome than an Israeli child. A cease-fire should be engaged and compensation for both sides worked out.
I agree. Sure, nothing of what Hamas did on 7 Oct can be supported or endorsed and they did indeed understand/welcomed the implications.
I think the point is that, like any terrorist act, a subset of a marginalised population felt compelled to extreme actions to achieve a political end. It's hard not to see why this has occurred with a decades long siege, Israel's continual expansion into the occupied territories, no negotiations in good faith to resolve the dispute, and their chief supporter, the US, "recognising the reality on the ground" - euphemism for "the Palestinians have lost". Put yourself in those shoes and it's easy to see that some might calculate that an extreme action might lead to an even more extreme response (which is true) and this MIGHT lead to the world putting renewed pressure on Israel to enter into good faith bargaining...